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85 735i Purchase
cgoreI am considering purchasing a 85 735i with 177K original miles on the engine. The car is an automatic that appear to run very good. The body is in good shape, no dents, never wrecked, except the original paint is starting to fade and peel in some spots. The interior is in fantastic shape, no cracks in dash or leather seats. All the power options are working. The brake lining light was on, but I was told by the owner that the sensor may not connected. Most of the engine parts have been replaced such as the starter, alternator, water pump, radiator, front brakes and rotors and the transmission has been rebuilt after Sears burned it out trying to diagnose an alternator problem. The engine does not leak or burn oil. The valves seem like they need to be adjusted, they sound loud to me. The suspension seem to be in good shape, but may need replacement parts soon. There are two small rust spots around the trunk, but the rest of the chassis appear to be rust free. What other things should I be wary of? What should I look to pay for this vehicle? Seller is asking 3500.00. Is this a reasonable price? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
scottieSounds too expensive intitially. Does the seller have all of the service records...at least 10 years back? At the very minimum, you should negotiate a price, ask the seller if he/she would be willing to allow you to take the car to a qualified BMW mechanic (not a dealer...somebody who KNOWS old BMWs) and have it looked over and also adjust the agreed-upon price depending on what repairs the mechanic suggests. Scottie Sharpe Sysop 84 745i 85 535i
cgoreThe service records are dated back to twelve years. She does not seem to want anyone to look at the car since the incident with Sears. I thought about taking a certified BMW mechanic with me to drive the car and give it an once over. However, I think the price is negotiable.
liamIF the car is truly on this kind of shape, then ~$3k is not unreasonable. You are likely to need to put some money in the car regardless of the purchase price, it's just a matter of how much. You definitely need someone familar with these cars to take a look at it. Don't know about someone who won't let you take a used car to have it looked at... My 1 cent. Cheers! Liam - 84 733i <insert witticism of your choice>
scottieThis originally appeared on the e28 board, but it has signifigance also so e23 purchasers....happy hunting! From: Pearson-Franks Family <pearsonf@pop.halcyon.com> Subject: E28 Purchase/Maintenance Observations Fellow Digesters: It has been a while since I have shared this, and I have been updating as experiences dictate, soooo The following notes are a collection of observations and experiences with my fav Bimmers: older 5ers. My observations are just that, not necessarily the Truth (capital 'T'), but _my_ experiences and judgements, leavened with mucho experience from other Digesters. My thanks to Mssrs Anderson, Boylan, D'G, Eilenberger, Levinson, Lin, Lyle, Stock, Tangen. I randomly include wildly personal prices, for ballpark info and potential purchase price negotiation. I look at them from the point of view of the DIYer, parts plus shop time (if required). Comments, corrections, additions all welcome. With any luck at all, this will be useful to others who enjoy these cars as much as I do! I grouped the the classic E28 look-for's: 1) Head, cam & engine 2) Cooling system 3) Oil (& oil leaks!) 4) Other engine compartment stuff 5) Tranny and clutch 6) Driveline 7) Suspension, steering and brakes 8) Interior, Electrical 9) General (catch-all) 1) Head Gasket and other Engine Notes: - Top end work a frequent 100,000ish requirement. $1500+ for parts (do all belts and hoses, too!) and shop time. - Compression or leak-down test very informative, look for 160+ on all cylinders, +/- 5 OK, +/- 10 marginal. If you want details on my many recorded numbers, or a rap on the leakdown test, drop me a note. - If you pull the valve cover (which I would recommend) check that the two 12mm head 'banjo bolts' that secure the oil bar to the head are snug. If these are loose this is _bad_. There is a new variety with a thread-locking feature, distinguished by a circle on the top; pn 07 11 9 917 511. Ought to replace both crush washers as well, pn 11 42 1 252 343 (you will need 4 - duh! <g>). - Check the cam rubbing surfaces: the peaks of the cam lobes should have no discernable wear (using the patented fingernail technique) and the rubbing blocks on the underside of the rocker arms should all appear the same in profile. If the banjo bolts were loose, TAKE YOUR TIME doing this part! If replacing the cam, add $300 to head job. - Easy things to look for in this department: coolant. If someone is concealing a known head gasket problem, the coolant may be clear and/or rusty, meaning they consume a lot, and have been just adding water, or the coolant may be suspiciously clean, meaning added to all the time. - Spark plug condition. In addition to the normal interpretation found in every Haynes manual (the color picture page), look for differences in plug color. Cylinders leaking coolant will have _very_ clean plugs. Pressure washed, if you will. - If you are pulling the plugs, run a thread-chaser - just like a tap only it is driven with your spark plug wrench. This will clean the carbon, etc. out of the threads; making it oh-so-much easier to run in the new plugs. You _are_ using anti-seize on the plug threads, aren't you?!? - Coolant burners (cracked head or bad head gasket) will put out reams of white smoke (actually steam) when they are first warming up. Smells kinda sweet, not unlike coolant. - Coolant system pressure and leak-down useful, but not definitive for head leak problems. Cracks, or high porousity areas may not show up with a static pressure test. - If you are looking at an 'e' motor and do not have conclusive proof that the timing belt has been replaced in the last 5 years or 50,000 miles, just do it. Better than bent valves, etc.! - The ECU cares a lot about what temp the coolant is. Or, thinks it is. If the sensor or wiring to it is bad, the ECU thinks it is 0 degrees F or something, makes the mixture rich as heck, which causes black smoke in the exhaust, bucking, hard starting and then no start. If you are in the no-start mode, pull a plug and see if it isn't soaked with gas. If so, drop in a new set and it will start right up, but run rough, prolly with aforesaid black smoke. Check the sensor, a single-wire white thingie in the thermostat housing. The crimp on the terminal itself dies, the wire can be broken inside the insulation (tricky!), but you can test for that by pulling on the terminal. The sensor itself measures something like 1-2K ohms at room temp. - I happen to believe in retorqueing the head bolts on occasion. Beliefs and experiences vary here. If interesting in pursuing, drop me a line. 2) Cooling System - It's my experience that radiators are a 8 - 10 year consumeable. The E12's have brass cores and tanks and can be rodded out. The E28's have aluminum cores with plastic tanks clipped to them with one-time-use crimps. And, the plastic ages badly, leading to broken hose connections, etc. Not worth repairing IMHO, but some Digesters have had good luck with Reseda Radiator. - Normal water pump inspection: check the water pump by rocking the fan, both in line and 90 degrees from the pressure of the belts. Play should be small, and the same in each direction. $45 part, add $200 for all belts and hoses. - When replacing the water pump, replace all the 6mm (10mm head) cap screws. _And_, run a 6mm tap into each hole. This can save mucho grief with holes filled with gunk, that cause the cap screw to bottom out and either leak or shear off :(. - From underneath with a light, find the 'weep-hole' just aft of the fan clutch mount. Should have no 'tear-tracks' left from a bad bearing seal. - Belts and hoses should be uncracked and not bulgy, respectively. - Temp guage should run at 10:30 to 12 o'clock under any and all conditions. After a test drive, leave it idling for 15 minutes or so and see what it goes up to and settles at. Anything over 12 o'clock means maintenance coming up. Radiator likely, typical consumable. $240 part. - If suspicious of guage/sensor inaccuracy, wrap your hand around the upper radiator hose: if you can squeeze it for an indefinite amount of time, <50 C, not warmed up yet. Hold several seconds, 70 - 90 C, OK. Can't hold 1 second, >90 C, which means trouble. Or, use a candy thermometer. Find one of the depressions in the thermostat housing, fill with a bit of water (to conduct heat) and stick the thermometer in it. It will read within a degree or two of a good thermostat spec. - Check fan clutch. Should not freewheel when spun, but have a certain resistance. Should give more resistance at temp, but this is hard to 'feel', in my experience. $30ish. - Heater control solenoid fails, resulting in erratic heat, or heat all the time. $25 for kit which replaces innards. The three thermistors that regulate temp also fail. Easy fixes, write for details. 3) Oil and Oil Leaks - Visually, 'fresh' oil will appear a clear brown, as you know. Black just means old, any cloudy or white means water, which is very BAD, 'bad' being likened to crossing two anti-proton streams, resulting in the destruction of the universe as we know it. - Check under oil filler cap: there should be no cloudiness, and gives you an idea of internal cleanliness (which is good). - The owner's manual says it is 'OK' if the oil pressure light comes on 'at times', like idling when hot, but should go out when revved. Drives me crazy if it comes on at all! If the oil light comes on like this, replace it. If it _still_ comes on, replace the oil pump - see below. - The oil pressure sender is a frequent leaker. The leak will track down the side of the engine and drip off the lowest point of the bell housing, so don't confuse it with other potential problems. - The pan gaskets occasionally 'creep' out of their space and self-destruct. If you go in to replace this on a high miles motor you intend to keep, replace the oil pump (and probably the sprocket) at the same time. $150ish, and well worth it. 4) Other Engine Compartment Stuff - All fuel lines are suspect by 100K - especially the short hank to the cold start injector at the lowest extreme of the intake manifold, for some esoteric reason. Don't use cheap stuff! Buy the BMW 8 x 13 mm original from one of many sources. - Vacuum leaks are a major hassle. Prime symptom is rough idle, flat spots at mid revs, may also be fuel pressure regulator. Do easy candidates first: put an o-ring in one of the grooves in the dipstick top. Put clamps on the hoses to the valve cover and idle motor (if E28). Replace any hard-as-rock hoses in general. Replace the fuel injector o-rings. - Look at the brake fluid. Black is _bad_, but at least means it wasn't being topped up each week (see 'slave' discussion below). Color of the brake fluid is a very good indicator of the general tenor of the maintenance regime for the car. If it is black as pitch, indicating it is _not_ getting the yearly replacement the anal-among-us so lovingly do, check more closely for all the other maintenance opportunities. - Lots of things can make this baby idle rough; already mentioned vacuum leaks. Mucho covered in FAQ's. Best I have seen is by Sam Lin <Sam@cmdexsvr.cmd.com> for a copy. - Plug wires are a 100k consumeable in my book. Cleap insurance, can help several marginal symptoms, lotsa sources, $80ish. 5) Tranny and Clutch - The 4-speed auto is famous for scorching the first clutch pack if revved in neutral. Actually not a terrible job to accomplish if you are a steely-eyed DIYer. Check that you can get the parts locally first! - The Getrag 5-speed should enter all gears smoothly - they are not especially prone to synchro failure in normal operation (i.e. not auto-x'd) but most are 'notchy', kinda hard to push into gear, especially when rev's not synched, but easily improved by putting in Redline MTL tranny oil. - Every 100K+ Getrag I've seen leaks. From the rear is OK but messy - shift shaft seal fails, soaking back of tranny. Output shaft seal weeps, no major heartache. Seam between front and rear half of tranny case weeps, wets bottom of tranny, but no sweat. Saving the best for last: If there is oil (not brake fluid, see below) coming out of the drain hole in the bell housing, either the tranny front seal is leaking, (likely) or the engine rear main (possibly). This is _bad_ (see definition above) because the clutch is not designed to be oil-bathed, and will tend to chatter and fail. Seals are $5-$10 each, clutch trio (pressure plate, clutch disk, throw-out bearing) are $300ish. All quite doable, but considerable labor, dropping exhaust, removing driveline. - While you're down there, check that the rear tranny mounts have not gone to mush, they do that. Check the engine mounts too; check for cracks in the top, especially on the right. - Clutch pedal should depress smoothly, although with a lot more force in the 535i than the 528e or a 3-series. Should not hang up on either the upswing or downswing - that could be broken 'ears' on the throwout bearing. - Stick your fingers under the forward edge of the dash sound cover just above the brake pedal and feel for wet, and smell your fingers - odor of brake fluid means the master is leaking. - Also check for clutch master cylinder flex to one side when the pedal is depressed - the pedal bracket mounting the master cylinder fatigues and cracks, allowing the master to move around. Time-consuming to replace, but not hard. - If brake fluid is leaking out of the drain hole of the bell housing, the clutch slave cylinder is leaking - very common, but cheap and easy to fix. Smell it to distinguish from oil, but bear in mind that you could be getting both. Another tip-off for this one is really clean brake fluid, from someone topping it up as it coats their garage floor. Another symptom for the slave being bad is that the clutch disengages very close to the floor, or the pedal will not return. This symptom is temp sensitive - may be fine when all is warm. Clutch pedal return problems _may_ be the assist spring on later E28's, if you are lucky ;~). - Many of these beasties have developed a lot of play in the shift mechanism: worn shifter bushings, mushy rubber mounts on the shift pivot mounting plate. I greatly enjoy the result of the Metric Mechanic short-shift kit. Stock shifter bushing parts will cost you $35-$60 at a dealer, MM shifter $200, ACS shifter $800. Or BL/SS. No affiliation. 6) Driveline - Check guibo, the rubber flexdisk connecting the output of the tranny to the driveline. At 100K it will be cracked, and may be the cause of a shudder at certain speeds (frequently 25 to 35 mph), especially while under load. - Ditto the center bearing and support, but much harder to check, as you have to dispose of the exhaust system (well, remove enough to get the heat shield off, but you know what I mean!). - Do the traditional twist-drive-components-and-note-any-play of the two U-joints. The rear one is the more likely to fail, and is easily observed. Bear in mind that if they are bad, you will need to get the driveline rebuilt, $450ish if you rebuild the whole thing (recommended). Check the Roundel for rebuilders - I have used Portland with great success. - Lots of candidates for driveline shudder; such as motor mounts, rear subframe mounts, and rotating the driveline to diff. orientation (which might have been thrown off by previous work). - Drop me a note if you want the long diatribe on dropping the exhaust, removing the driveline, etc. Almost the same for E30's. 7) Suspension, Steering and Brakes - There are books written on the subject of the front control arms bushings, but the exec summary is: they all die. Symptoms of impending doom are shuddering when braking, especially from say 65 down to 45. May get very jumpy at the steering wheel. There are upper and lower control arm bushings and ball joints, and lots of alternatives (bushing upgrades, etc.). FAQ's abound. $160-$800 in parts. Go with the modified 750 ones (Steve D'G or BavAuto) if you plan on keeping the car. - And, of course, the front rotors warp. $120ish. Always replace the 5mm hex that secures the rotors. Cheap insurance. - The 535i boost system feels weird (the 528e is a very vanilla vacuum boost.) The point is; in a perfectly healthy hydralic- boosted system, you can 'surprise' the system if the engine is running but the car is standing still by stomping the brake pedal hard - you can make it most of the way to the floor. Not to worry; you are _way_ past the point that triggers ABS, but tech checks for track days may be tricky - the typical M3 driver doing the check will panic. Explain ahead of time! - With the engine running for brake boost, stand on the brake pedal for 30 seconds or so. If it drifts toward the floor, time for a master cylinder. Replace, don't rebuild. $80 to $180, +/- year and/or ABS. - Steering should be 'tight' when gently rocked at the center of travel when the engine is off. 'Clunks' may mean Pitman arm bushings (_bad_), loose collar nut under dash (easy) or bad center track rod (cheap, <$60, but obnoxious). Play also comes from a worn idler arm bushing. <$30ish> - The two senders on the brake pressure regulator regularly leak. Replace them both, $32ish total. - There is a 'nitrogen ball', frequently referred to as the 'brake bomb', due to it's cartoon-bomblike appearance, that dies. Symptom is a slow-to-respond brake pedal, frequently accompanied by a flash of the 'brake' idiot light, and/or no brake boost immediately after shutting down the engine. (It should give several-to-many 'assists' after shutdown). Again, several fine FAQ's on replacement (somewhere). $60ish. - When checking the p/s and brake boost fluid level, bear in mind that if the engine has been running and the nitrogen ball is in working order, there is a inch or so of fluid in the ball. Fully discharge the ball by stomping the brake pedal 10-20 times and watch the fluid level creep up. Adjust to the line in the side of the can at that point. This applies to the 'i' only; as the 'e' uses vacuum boost. - Fluid should be pretty; not black. There is a filter in the bottom of the reserviour that should be changed on the 'i'. - This is another classic oil leak source: the cheapy crimped hose clamps on the lines to the reserviour 'relax'. Replace with decent stainless steel from Steve D'G. Replace the low pressure hoses with quality stuff if anal-like-me. 8) Interior, Electrical - Alternator brushes ($5.50 at BavAuto) are typical 140K items. Two screws pop the assy off the back of the alternator to check. - Weird guage problems (tach or mpg guage erratic, etc.) indicate a possible SI battery replacement needed. Very typical, and lots written on the subject. - Dead SI batteries may also cause the Oil Service lights to be on at odd times. <$10 for batts, couple hundred for rebuilt board.> - If batt's are OK, lights are very easily reset, refer to FAQ's and/or reset tools, or, for the very brave, just ground pin 7 of the diagnostic connector, turn on the ignition (but don't start) until all the lights go off, and you're done. Many will tell you this procedure is highly risky, but so is cutting vegetables with a dull knife - sheesh! no rocket science here. - Jump pins 11 to 14 for remote start. (15 pin version) - Headrest up/down dies. Easy fix, good FAQ's elsewhere. $0. - Just an observation: window lift and sunroof switches were illuminated 'standard' in late '86 US cars on. Easy swap, wires already in place, as an easy upgrade. I got a set from Jason at Zionsville, very cool outfit (no affiliation, yada x 3) Also, they get mechanically sticky and electrically erratic if exposed to Armorall. Switches can be opened and cleaned. - Fuse box has chronic, but easy problems. Fuse clips corrode, wirebrush 'em. Fuses corrode, replace 'em all. Connections inside the box can get erratic or hot. A real bear to troubleshoot. - Several chronic problems show up as 'cutting out' at any speed, frequently the 'main' relay, sometimes the fuel pump relay, sometimes the position or timing sensors. Connections to the _underside_ of Fuse 6 can corrode and heat up. - Several handy voltages to know, measured at the battery: 10.0v - voltage at batt while cranking starter 12.3v - 50% charged battery, 'at rest' 12.7v - fully charged battery, 'at rest' 13.6v - minimum acceptable alternator output at idle 14.3v - maximum acceptable alternator output at revs Ref: Mark Calabrese article "In the Dark?" March, 1996 Roundel - If the ABS light comes on after you start rolling, chances are one of the sensors is faulty. The wires flex and fail inside the insulation. Definitive test is with an ohmmeter on the connector to the ABS brain above the fuel injection ECU above the glovebox. Details in Bentley and elsewhere. Also, the sensors or the gear they read can just get scummed up, and are recovered by mere cleaning. Which entails pulling the wheels, rotors and sensors. <$0>. 9) General - Don't believe a _dang_ thing a salesperson says, if there is not documentation behind it. "Changed the oil every 3K miles" if literally true means they _never_ changed the filter. Semantics? Maybe. The car tells the real story, a salesperson has a car to sell. - Lots of exhaust replacement opinions, choose one you like. The E28 cats crack, but can be successfully welded for years. - Water in the trunk is usually a bad (hardened and/or cracked) rubber gasket around the taillight assy's. Replace them both. - Buy a Bentley manual, and an ETM (Electronic Troubleshooting Manual) if you are electrically astute. - Check to see if it has the TRX tires. If so, you face one of the classic $$$ delimmas - discount asking price $400 if tires OK, $1000 if tires need replacement. Many details elsewhere. - For an excellent treatment of all the E- and M- numbers, check: http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk/enumber.html, John Burns' page. That's it! As before, comments, corrections welcome. Larry F. - -- Pearson-Franks Family Issaquah, Washington Scottie Sharpe Sysop 84 745i 85 535i